I knew him to succeed

[Bryant]

Hi,

I'd like somebody to check if following sentence is grammatical.

I knew/found him to succeed.

If possible, then what is the meaning?

a. I knew/found that he (had) succeeded. or
b. I knew/found that he would/will succeed (in the future). or
c. both (meaning ambiguous)

As far as I know, 'know/find' in this meaning is used as something true as a result of trying, testing, experiencing. My question is, then, how this sense could be matched with future meaning?

Also is following possible? In this case, however, the meaning is fairly clear.

I knew/found him to have succeeded.

Thank you!

[Marius Hancu]

> I knew/found him to succeed.

Yes, possible, but rare in published books:

4 on "found him to succeed"
http://books.google.com/books?q=%22found+him+to+succeed%22&btnG=Search+Books

---
Practical educationists and their systems of teaching‎ - Page 141 (http://books.google.com/books?id=wyICAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA141&dq=%22found+him+to+succeed%22)

by James Leitch - Biography & Autobiography (http://books.google.com/books?q=+subject:%22Biography+%26+Autobiography%22 ) - 1876 - 302 pages

... he often called in a boy more advanced to aid him, and usually found him to succeed entirely, even when all his own efforts had failed.
-----


It means (in the above quotation) that later on It was found that he was successful, he was succeeding after getting help.

Said otherwise:
Later on, he was found to have succeded.
(Looking back)

[Marius Hancu]

> I knew/found him to have succeeded.

This is correct too.

It means he was/had been succesful before the time of knowing/finding/evaluation.

a and b are correct too, but different of each other.

In b, to know means to be confident (which I would use). Found is strange in b. It may mean:

based on my experience, I thought/induced/deduce that he would succeed/be successful in the future

[Marius Hancu]

To see if someone succeeds/has succeded, you look at his past or present results, then you know it's one way or another. I don't see any logical difficulty.

[Bryant]

Thank you!

Two follow-up questions.

1. ... he often called in a boy more advanced to aid him, and usually found him to succeed entirely, even when all his own efforts had failed.

In this sentence which is first, 'found' or 'succeed'? I think 'succeed' is first or at the same time, and NOT 'found' is first. Am I getting it right?

2. You also said "a and b are correct, too." Does this mean the sentence b "I knew that he would/will succeed (in the future)" is correct in itself, which I know, or b has the same meaning as the sentence "I knew him to succeed.", which I'm not sure?
Then the sentence "I knew him to succeed." is ambiguous, isn't it? 'cause it also has the meaning "I knew/found that he (had) succceeded."

[Marius Hancu]

It was found he was successful, he was succeeding after getting help.

Found is of course the later-occuring of the verbs.

a and b are not the same. Read again my explanations.

I knew him to succeed

is a bit ambiguous in terms of time, but I don't see it as correct or clear in the future meaning. Any infinitive, as any non-finite verb, can describe actions at any time, past, present, future; it depends on the context, thus you must be careful. Had better use finite forms when not sure.

[Bryant]

Thank you again!

My first question is about the sentence,

I knew/find him to succeed.

And you said it is rare but possible. And a and b are also possible, though their meanings are different. I got it. But my real question is,

Does "I knew/find him to succeed" has the same meaning as a, b or ambiquous(both)?


[Oops! You've just edited your reply. Then I find out that the "I knew/find him to succeed" safely means "I knew/found that he (had) succeeded." And if this is right, that's it! I can't thank you enough.]

[Marius Hancu]

> I knew/find him to succeed.

Its basic meaning is parallel/contemporaneous perspective:

I knew him as succeeding/successful at what he did.
I find him as succeeding/successful at what he does.

Less straightforward/sure (with more looking-back perspective) are these equivalents:

I knew him as having succeeded/as having been successful at what he had done/attempted.
I find him as having succeeded/as having been successful at what he has been doing/attempting.

My readings here are clearer than the original in terms of defining more exactly the time sequence, IMO.

The rest is speculation and not to be relied on.

[Marius Hancu]

Looking back, you need to improve the clarity your postings/questions, as you're confusing. There's poor connection between presentation and questions. We had to do too many iterations.

I've just edited some of my posts here, so you may want to look again at them.

[Bryant]

Thank you very much for your kind attention.

My initial question was simple.

Which of the followings has similar meaning to the sentence "I knew/found him to succeed?"

a. I knew/found him that he (had) succeeded .
b. I knew/found him that he would/will succeed (in the future).
c. a and b both (having ambiguous meaning)

Now I know the answer is a. But was this that hard to understand? Then I'm really sorry for confusing you.

[Marius Hancu]

More versions provided in the edited.
The latest is a much better formulation on your part.