Are there English equivalents of "genitivus obiectivus"?

[teleostomi]

Are there any example of "objective genitives" in English? For example, "my love"- Could it mean "somebody's love for me"?

[danmahaffey]

Are there any example of "objective genitives" in English? For example, "my love"- Could it mean "somebody's love for me"?I want to answer your earlier question about cases in the morning (my morning) when I can think more clearly, and I will give this one a try then, also. But to help me help you with this question, please give me some more information about my love. Use it in a sentence perhaps. Thanks. Later.

[teleostomi]

I wasn't being specific, sorry!

I am looking for English examples of genitives functioning in themselves as objectives. For instance, "my love" always means "my love for someone else or for something" but not "somebody else's love for me (or that someone loves me)." In Latin, "amor Ciceronis" ("Ciceronis" is the genitive of "Cicero") can mean either "Cicero's love" or "somebody else's love for Cicero." Are there any examples in English of "(genitive) (noun)" that aren't possessive?

BTW, I spelled "genital" in place of "genitive", thank god I noticed my mistake and edited it!:D


Thanks for being very helpful, dan! I'd be infinitely delighted if you could help me with another question:

http://www.englishpage.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6914

[Temico]

I wasn't being specific, sorry!

I am looking for English examples of genitives functioning in themselves as objectives. For instance, "my love" always means "my love for someone else or for something" but not "somebody else's love for me (or that someone loves me)." In Latin, "amor Ciceronis" ("Ciceronis" is the genitive of "Cicero") can mean either "Cicero's love" or "somebody else's love for Cicero." Are there any examples in English of "(genitive) (noun)" that aren't possessive?

BTW, I spelled "genital" in place of "genitive", thank god I noticed my mistake and edited it!:D


Thanks for being very helpful, dan! I'd be infinitely delighted if you could help me with another question:

http://www.englishpage.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6914

...or that someone loves me..
"My love" can also mean "the person who loves me". e.g.
"My love is longing for me and coming back from abroad in summer."

[ponpoco256]

Are there any example of "objective genitives" in English? For example, "my love"- Could it mean "somebody's love for me"?
I think, in the English language, possessives rarely work as an objective of the words that follows them. One example I know is "my senior" in "He is my senior". This means "He is senior to me".

ponpoco

[ponpoco256]

Are there any example of "objective genitives" in English? For example, "my love"- Could it mean "somebody's love for me"?
I noticed there are many objective gentives: his followers, her admirers, their ruler, etc.

ponpoco

[danmahaffey]

I wasn't being specific, sorry!

I am looking for English examples of genitives functioning in themselves as objectives. For instance, "my love" always means "my love for someone else or for something" but not "somebody else's love for me (or that someone loves me)." In Latin, "amor Ciceronis" ("Ciceronis" is the genitive of "Cicero") can mean either "Cicero's love" or "somebody else's love for Cicero." Are there any examples in English of "(genitive) (noun)" that aren't possessive?

BTW, I spelled "genital" in place of "genitive", thank god I noticed my mistake and edited it!:D


Thanks for being very helpful, dan! I'd be infinitely delighted if you could help me with another question:

http://www.englishpage.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6914Let's give this a whirl.

If you and I went to visit others, and we were warmly received, we might say,1. Your welcome made us feel at home.
Or, we might say,2. Our welcome was unexpected and heartwarming.
In sentence (1) the welcome is offered by our host. In sentence (2) it is offered for us.

I think sentence (2) is the sense you are asking about--objective genitive.

Now bear in mind that English barely has nominative or subjective case, with possessive hanging on by its fingernails (or its apostrophes), for its nouns, so cases are simulated by prepositional phrasing, mostly for the entertainment of high school grammar teachers and university linguists. So genitive case is an abstract idea in English.

I don't know yet (meaning that I'm still thinking about it) whether I can make love do what I made welcome do above. Why don't you try also.

[teleostomi]

Now bear in mind that English barely has nominative or subjective case, with possessive hanging on by its fingernails (or its apostrophes), for its nouns, so cases are simulated by prepositional phrasing,

:confused: What do you mean by this? Could you make it easier to understand for me please?

As for "my welcome" (their welcoming me), that's what I wanted, as are "my admirers", "my followers" and "my seniors" as Ponpoco wrote.

Thanks both of you!

[danmahaffey]

:confused: What do you mean by this? Could you make it easier to understand for me please?

As for "my welcome" (their welcoming me), that's what I wanted, as are "my admirers", "my followers" and "my seniors" as Ponpoco wrote.

Thanks both of you!First, let me say that I was being humorous, and I wrote something that was not appropriate for my audience. I was wrong for doing that, and I will be more careful.

English nouns have lost the case endings they once had in Anglo-Saxon. And in doing so, English nouns have lost their cases. All nouns are nominative case, by default. Only possessive case remains in the form of noun-apostrophe-s (noun's). Some pronouns have nominative, objective and posessive cases. You know all this.

So genitive case that you asked about is not a feature of modern English. It occurred once in Anglo-Saxon, it occurs in modern French, it occurred in Latin. It is not in modern English at all.

If I was able to find an example of genitive for you, it was a simulation. That is, it was a formation that acted like genitive, but could not be, because English has no genitive.

English now uses prepositions in phrases rather than case to establish roles and relationships among nouns in a sentence, not unlike particles in Japanese (de, ni, made, kara,...).

I am curious why you are wondering about objective genitive. Intellectual curiousity I understand, and appreciate. Also I can appreciate comparing languages. Do you, however, take a language course that suggests that English has a case structure for its grammar?

[ponpoco256]

I noticed there are many objective gentives: his followers, her admirers, their ruler, etc.

ponpocoSome more examples: "his election as CEO" (=They elected him as CEO), "his imprisonment" (=They imprisoned him), and "my impression of San Francisco" (SF impressed me).

ponpoco

[teleostomi]

Hi danma, thanks as always! Thanks to you, ponpoco. Your linguistic knowledge amazes me. :cool: Keep inspiring us with your insight!

Hi danma, don't apologize plz! Thanks to your follow-up comment, now I've completely understood your explanation. I see that you've tried to convince me that English cases are almost extinct, save pronouns (I, my, me, etc.). Seems like I have to understand that there are no cases in English except for pronouns. I'm going to have to remember that.

Apart from that, my focus was rather this: can English genitive forms of pronouns represent an objective? (Am I being clear and understandable?) Luckily enough, ponpoco saved it for me. You're always being helpful to me, and I'll always expecting for your help.

[danmahaffey]

Hi danma, thanks as always! Thanks to you, ponpoco. Your linguistic knowledge amazes me. :cool: Keep inspiring us with your insight!

Hi danma, don't apologize plz! Thanks to your follow-up comment, now I've completely understood your explanation. I see that you've tried to convince me that English cases are almost extinct, save pronouns (I, my, me, etc.). Seems like I have to understand that there are no cases in English except for pronouns. I'm going to have to remember that.

Apart from that, my focus was rather this: can English genitive forms of pronouns represent an objective? (Am I being clear and understandable?) Luckily enough, ponpoco saved it for me. You're always being helpful to me, and I'll always expecting for your help.Genitive case survives in English as possessive case, although in Old English (Anglo-Saxon) it had more duties than ownership. Life would be simpler for English speakers (only a little) if we would call possessive case genitive case. Oh, well.... Here is a link to an Anglo-Saxon site that you might find very interesting if you have the time and want to expend some language energy. The page I will send you to is the page that covers cases, but search the whole site if you care to. You may find enough information to see what I was planning to illustrate about nouns as adjectives. (Maybe not.) Let me know if you like what you find. http://www.wmich.edu/medieval/research/rawl/IOE/case.html

-Dan.

[teleostomi]

Hi danma, me again!
I really appreciate your [should it be "you"?] giving me a challenging assignment. This is what I was looking for, a place where "the more you ask, the more you realize that you have to study more." Therefore, I'm glad that you've guided me to a pertinent link that would help me reach another level of understanding. As the link page is full of difficult sentences, I need some time to read so as to say something about the English case. But I know it must be useful for me anyway.

[danmahaffey]

Hi danma, me again!
I really appreciate your [should it be "you"?] giving me a challenging assignment. This is what I was looking for, a place where "the more you ask, the more you realize that you have to study more." Therefore, I'm glad that you've guided me to a pertinent link that would help me reach another level of understanding. As the link page is full of difficult sentences, I need some time to read so as to say something about the English case. But I know it must be useful for me anyway.Take your time and explore. Neither you nor I are in a hurry. I hope you enjoy what you find on the site.