apparently

[Shinya Maki]

Hello everyone.

The following is from a newspaper article.

The husband is apparently a South-Korean man allegedly abducted to North Korea about 30 years ago and is the father of Yokota’s daughter, a Japanese government official said Friday.

How much certainty does the word “apparently” above indicate here? Is the certainty as high as “clearly” or ”obviously,” or is it like “it seems”?

Best regards,
Shinya Maki

[Temico]

Hello everyone.

The following is from a newspaper article.

The husband is apparently a South-Korean man allegedly abducted to North Korea about 30 years ago and is the father of Yokota’s daughter, a Japanese government official said Friday.

How much certainty does the word “apparently” above indicate here? Is the certainty as high as “clearly” or ”obviously,” or is it like “it seems”?

Best regards,
Shinya Maki

Here, "apparently" = "readily understood or perceived as; evidently; obviously

[Shinya Maki]

Thank you, Temoco,for your reply.
Here, "apparently" = "readily understood or perceived as; evidently; obviously

Let me know, Temoco, why you think so. Any comment would be appreciated.

Shinya Maki

[Temico]

Thank you, Temoco,for your reply.


Let me know, Temoco, why you think so. Any comment would be appreciated.

Shinya Maki
quote from the OED 10th Edition

apparent. adj. ----readily perceived or understood; obvious

Another example:
X: He had always failed this exam. How come he got so high marks this time?
Y: He apparently cheated.

[Shinya Maki]

quote from the OED 10th Edition

apparent. adj. ----readily perceived or understood; obvious

Could you give me the full title of the "OED 10th Edition" you mentioned above? If you mean "The Pocket Oxford Dictionary", then 9th ed. is available but 10th is not in Japan as far as I know.

Shinya Maki

[Temico]

Could you give me the full title of the "OED 10th Edition" you mentioned above? If you mean "The Pocket Oxford Dictionary", then 9th ed. is available but 10th is not in Japan as far as I know.

Shinya Maki
Concise Oxford Dictionary - Tenth Edition ( on CD-Rom)

You can also confirm the meaning of "apparent" here:-
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/apparent?view=uk

[danmahaffey]

Concise Oxford Dictionary - Tenth Edition ( on CD-Rom)

You can also confirm the meaning of "apparent" here:-
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/apparent?view=ukTemico's second illustration of apparently does not conform to his first.

It is quite a leap of faith to apparently ascribe such high marks on an exam to cheating, whereas it is not as much a leap apparently to be South Korean kidnapped to North Korea.

Another definition of apparently, and the better one for Temico's second illustration, is seemingly. That is, giving the impression while perhaps not actually being so.

* * * * *

Apparently also belongs to a class of words which a speaker uses to convey a point he wishes to appear as truth, without having to justify or defend his position. You should look closely at the word apparently to recognize that it includes the concept of appear. Then ask yourself what appears to whom. Then follow that with asking whether that appearing also applies to you, yourself. While it may appear to the Japanese government official that the man was South Korean, does it appear that way to you? Is the word apparently a truth?

Other such constructions include, it is generally understood, it is hoped for, a desireable outcome, without a doubt, understandably, it is accepted, unfortunately, clearly, obviously (as you pointed out) and so on. The list is endless, as you might imagine. Stay on your toes.

[Temico]

Temico's second illustration of apparently does not conform to his first.

It is quite a leap of faith to apparently ascribe such high marks on an exam to cheating, whereas it is not as much a leap apparently to be South Korean kidnapped to North Korea.

Another definition of apparently, and the better one for Temico's second illustration, is seemingly. That is, giving the impression while perhaps not actually being so.

* * * * *

Apparently also belongs to a class of words which a speaker uses to convey a point he wishes to appear as truth, without having to justify or defend his position. You should look closely at the word apparently to recognize that it includes the concept of appear. Then ask yourself what appears to whom. Then follow that with asking whether that appearing also applies to you, yourself. While it may appear to the Japanese government official that the man was South Korean, does it appear that way to you? Is the word apparently a truth?

Other such constructions include, it is generally understood, it is hoped for, a desireable outcome, without a doubt, understandably, it is accepted, unfortunately, clearly, obviously (as you pointed out) and so on. The list is endless, as you might imagine. Stay on your toes.
Ha ha ha.....I wonder why Americans didn't question the apparent(=seeming real) facts--without conclusive proof, of course,-- about Iraq's WMD's before going to war and murdering hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis??
It's always easy to second-guess what you think and want other people to say but not your own people, isn't it? Ha ha ha........

[ponpoco256]

The following is from a newspaper article.

The husband is apparently a South-Korean man allegedly abducted to North Korea about 30 years ago and is the father of Yokota’s daughter, a Japanese government official said Friday.

How much certainty does the word “apparently” above indicate here? Is the certainty as high as “clearly” or ”obviously,” or is it like “it seems”?
"Apparently" has two senses.
(1) The problem is apparently trivial, but actually quite important.
(2) The answer is apparently wrong, but I can't figure out why.

Your sentence uses "apparently" in the first sense.

ponpoco

[Shinya Maki]

Thanks for your reply, ponpocp256.
"Apparently" has two senses.
(1) The problem is apparently trivial, but actually quite important.
(2) The answer is apparently wrong, but I can't figure out why.

Your sentence uses "apparently" in the first sense.


Sorry, but I don't understand the difference between your two senses. Could you explain a little about it?

Shinya Maki

[ponpoco256]

Thanks for your reply, ponpocp256.


Sorry, but I don't understand the difference between your two senses. Could you explain a little about it?

Shinya Maki
(1) The problem is apparently/ostensibly/seemingly trivial, but actually quite important.
(2) The answer is apparently/obviously/evidently wrong, but I can't figure out why.

[danmahaffey]

(1) The problem is apparently/ostensibly/seemingly trivial, but actually quite important.
(2) The answer is apparently/obviously/evidently wrong, but I can't figure out why.Apparently has two meanings for our purposes:
seeming to be so, and being so
seeming to be so, yet uncertain; what we would call wishful thinkingContext and credibility will tell you which meaning is being applied.

Here are some uses of definition (1) Apparently this is the right road.
He apparently went to school around here.
My cousin apparently gets only the best tickets.
Here are some uses of definition (2) He apparently cheated on the test.
The prime minister apparently took a bribe to influence the legislation.
Apparently she traded her stock on inside information.
If this leads to more questions, just ask.

[Pete]

The definitions and examples of "apparently" in the on-line Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary coincide with my understanding and use of the word:

> http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=3513&dict=CALD

[ponpoco256]

WordNet 2.0

apparently

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adverb

1. from appearances alone; "irrigation often produces bumper crops from apparently desert land"; "the child is seemingly healthy but the doctor is concerned"; "had been ostensibly frank as to his purpose while really concealing it"-Thomas Hardy; "on the face of it the problem seems minor"
(synonym) seemingly, ostensibly, on the face of it
(pertainym) apparent(a), ostensible, seeming(a)

2. unmistakably (`plain' is often used informally for `plainly'); "the answer is obviously wrong"; "she was in bed and evidently in great pain"; "he was manifestly too important to leave off the guest list"; "it is all patently nonsense"; "she has apparently been living here for some time"; "I thought he owned the property, but apparently not"; "You are plainly wrong"; "he is plain stubborn"
(synonym) obviously, evidently, manifestly, patently, plainly, plain
(pertainym) apparent, evident, manifest, patent, plain
(classification) colloquialism

[danmahaffey]

The definitions and examples of "apparently" in the on-line Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary coincide with my understanding and use of the word:

> http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=3513&dict=CALDPete, I will certainly defer to the esteemed dictionary for the reference definition, no question. However, I prefaced my statement above with the phrase for our purposes deliberately. I wanted to contrast the dissembling use of apparently with its honest uses. Because apparently can cause the listener to suspend disbelief it is a powerful word to transmit lies. I especially wanted to expose the notion that to succeed on an exam after previous failures apparently requires cheating. None of Cambridge's definitions includes the semantic content of that sentence. Definition (3) comes close, but still conveys honesty. I think George Orwell would understand.

[Rusty]

Ha ha ha.....I wonder why Americans didn't question the apparent(=seeming real) facts--without conclusive proof, of course,-- about Iraq's WMD's before going to war and murdering hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis??
It's always easy to second-guess what you think and want other people to say but not your own people, isn't it? Ha ha ha........ In America we can say what's on our minds (as you have done) without fear of being arrested. Unfortunately, the same is not true of every country in the world. The purpose of this forum is to help people learn English. There are many chat rooms where politics, religion and other controversial subjects can be argued.

[daya]

Pardon me Temico, but don't you realize that trying to instigate up a conflict out of the blue only brings to the fore the fact of your incapibility to admit you are wrong? We come here to learn English language. Do you think putting one's views across no matter how controversial is a basic exercise in the proper learning of a language? You call yourself a student. What kind of student are you? You must show respect to your fellow members who try to improve our English and the native speakers who are generous to answer our questions. You must pay attention to the rules that say to use appropriate language and refrain from personal insults or discriminatory comments. We agree to follow these rules when we join up as members. If you agree to rules you should not break them. The other members do not break the rules. If you want to start arguments you should do what Rusty tells you. You should go some place for arguing. I sincerely hope you will think carefully about this and realize what you are doing is wrong.`

[Temico]

In America we can say what's on our minds (as you have done) without fear of being arrested. Unfortunately, the same is not true of every country in the world. The purpose of this forum is to help people learn English. There are many chat rooms where politics, religion and other controversial subjects can be argued.
FYI, Rusty, the original statement was made by a Japanese officialand not a native speaker( who may use, as Danmahaffey said, "a powerful word to transmit lies".). Whether the Japanese official said it in English or through an official translator is not clear/important, but in any case, do you really believe that these Japanese people would use "apparently" to mean "seems" or "seemingly true" when it usually means "obviously"?? Isn't it apparent that someone here is deliberately second-guessing what the Japanese official said to conform with what he thought and wanted them to say? You may not admit it, but this habit is inherent with some native speakers--- they can "second-guess" others but others can't do likewise! Allow me to remind you of an infamous example. Remember that despicable US EP-3 spy plane incident over Hainan Island a fews years back when a Chinese jet was knocked off the sky killing its pilot? The Americans insisted that their "We are sorry..." did not mean "We applogize.." and of course, the Chinese weren't allowed to second-guess it to mean that way! Apparently, "Sorry" which is a very commonly-used word, used even by little kids, is actually another "powerful word to transmit lies"( tks. again Danmahaffey!!

There are many chat rooms where politics, religion and other controversial subjects can be argued
You apparently don't realise it or don't want to admit it, but "Iraq-WMD" is also a US concocted "powerful word to transmit lies"! Please remember that "apparently" which is a powerful word to transmit lies is the subject of this thread. "Iraq-WMD" is another one of those powerful words, so I am not straying too far away from the subject.

[Temico]

Pardon me Temico, but don't you realize that trying to instigate up a conflict out of the blue only brings to the fore the fact of your incapibility to admit you are wrong? We come here to learn English language. Do you think putting one's views across no matter how controversial is a basic exercise in the proper learning of a language? You call yourself a student. What kind of student are you? You must show respect to your fellow members who try to improve our English and the native speakers who are generous to answer our questions. You must pay attention to the rules that say to use appropriate language and refrain from personal insults or discriminatory comments. We agree to follow these rules when we join up as members. If you agree to rules you should not break them. The other members do not break the rules. If you want to start arguments you should do what Rusty tells you. You should go some place for arguing. I sincerely hope you will think carefully about this and realize what you are doing is wrong.`
What's bugging you "daya"? Remember it's you (who only joined yesterday) who came "out of the blue" to provoke me so don't blame if I get nasty!
I can tell from the titles of your posts that you are nothing but a biased person with an inherent discrimination against "non-native speakers" , ****. Apparently, to you all "native speakers" are educated and in a position to answer your English questions which in reality is far from the truth. ****!

[From Pete, Moderator: The spots above marked **** show places where I removed parts of the comment that I felt were personal insults and therefore inappropriate.]

[danmahaffey]

FYI, Rusty, the original statement was made by a Japanese officialand not a native speaker( who may use, as Danmahaffey said, "a powerful word to transmit lies".). Whether the Japanese official said it in English or through an official translator is not clear/important, but in any case, do you really believe that these Japanese people would use "apparently" to mean "seems" or "seemingly true" when it usually means "obviously"?? Isn't it apparent that someone here is deliberately second-guessing what the Japanese official said to conform with what he thought and wanted them to say? You may not admit it, but this habit is inherent with some native speakers--- they can "second-guess" others but others can't do likewise! Allow me to remind you of an infamous example. Remember that despicable US EP-3 spy plane incident over Hainan Island a fews years back when a Chinese jet was knocked off the sky killing its pilot? The Americans insisted that their "We are sorry..." did not mean "We applogize.." and of course, the Chinese weren't allowed to second-guess it to mean that way! Apparently, "Sorry" which is a very commonly-used word, used even by little kids, is actually another "powerful word to transmit lies"( tks. again Danmahaffey!!


You apparently don't realise it or don't want to admit it, but "Iraq-WMD" is also a US concocted "powerful word to transmit lies"! Please remember that "apparently" which is a powerful word to transmit lies is the subject of this thread. "Iraq-WMD" is another one of those powerful words, so I am not straying too far away from the subject.Temico, this is a language forum, not a political forum. Argue whether apparently can be used to transmit lies by exploring its meaning, and perhaps citing quotations to illustrate. Your own political leanings or messages are not appropriate, nor are mine.

If you reread the postings you will note that I said nothing one way or the other about the Japanese official or his integrity. Do not throw this up at me or this forum, even in an oblique way. In fact, I believe the official was absolutely accurate in his assessment, and that the fellow kidnapped indeed was South Korean.

If you want to discuss the word apparently, feel free to continue this thread here. Otherwise, post political commentary elsewhere.

[Temico]

Temico, this is a language forum, not a political forum. Argue whether apparently can be used to transmit lies by exploring its meaning, and perhaps citing quotations to illustrate. Your own political leanings or messages are not appropriate, nor are mine.

If you reread the postings you will note that I said nothing one way or the other about the Japanese official or his integrity. Do not throw this up at me or this forum, even in an oblique way. In fact, I believe the official was absolutely accurate in his assessment, and that the fellow kidnapped indeed was South Korean.

If you want to discuss the word apparently, feel free to continue this thread here. Otherwise, post political commentary elsewhere.

FYI, if you reread, (repeat reread) the thread you will find that you are one who initiated all this hullabaloo! You tried to undermine me, “even in an oblique way” by second-guessing what I meant by "apparently" in my example despite the fact that it was for me and not for you to decide what it meant. I created the example; I decide what it means and nobody else! Also, it was you who brought up this "powerful word to transmit lies" definition which is not even in any dictionary! When I used them (second-guessing and powerful word) to illustrate another example, you didn't like it because it happened to touch on your sore points which you would rather not have exposed. You then come up with lousy excuses such as “political forum”, "political leanings" to claim inappropriateness. How come I don't hear you complain about the inappropriateness of discriminatorypostings such as “Native speaker help…” Native speaker’s opinion…” Are all native speakers better than non-native speakers in this forum?? Or is OK with you since you are not meant or implied??

If you really think that you can intimidate me or get away with your nonsensical accusations, you’d better have another think!

[daya]

Temico you prove my point that when a conversation does not go your way you attack others. You make assumptions which are simple minded and false. Native speaking teachers in China are not a concern of my company. It is my right to ask native speakers for advice and comments if this will provide the information my company requires. In another situation I may seek different advice. If I ask men to answer will you say I discriminate against women? If I ask people under a certain age for their comments will that be discrimination to you? You are so eager to criticize you do not think outside your narrow mind.

You live in the past Temico. This is the twenty-first century. At one time "lackey" was a favorite word for Communists to use for insulting people who worked hard to compete in the business world. You do not hear this word today. People would think it was a joke! You talk like an old man who cannot find a place in the modern world so he clings to the time when he was young. If you want a place for debating outdated political opinions you should go to the forum where old men do nothing but sit around and trade insults all day. This is not a sarcastic comment. It is honest advice. You would be welcome there.

The point is this Temico, students and business people do not have time to look for answers hidden between your arguments. You make confusion where there should be easy understanding. It is not for you to say what goes on in this forum. It is for the moderators to decide. When you break the rules you show disrespect for yourself and for the forum and your fellow members do not thank you for this. Why do you stay here if so many people upset you? Can you not see that you do not fit in?

[ponpoco256]

You live in the past Temico. This is the twenty-first century. At one time "lackey" was a favorite word for Communists to use for insulting people who worked hard to compete in the business world. You do not hear this word today. People would think it was a joke! You talk like an old man who cannot find a place in the modern world so he clings to the time when he was young. If you want a place for debating outdated political opinions you should go to the forum where old men do nothing but sit around and trade insults all day. This is not a sarcastic comment. It is honest advice. You would be welcome there.
I see! I've never heard anyone but Temico say "lackey" so I've been long puzzled at why the guy is using the strange swearword "lackey" so often. Now I got the reason!

In the 20th century rhetoric of some Communist groups, "lackey" was used as a derogative word in phrases such as "lackey of Capitalism" or "lackey of the bourgeoisie". What is implied is that the person to which the term is applied, while not himself a member of the bourgeoisie or not deriving high benefits from Capitalism, is still subservient to their goals. Such insults are, in particular, applied to leaders of left-wing parties that seek accommodations with the current economic or social system, or to any leader suspect of doing so.

Thanks for the nice info, daya!

[daya]

I see! I've never heard anyone but Temico say "lackey" so I've been long puzzled at why the guy is using the strange swearword "lackey" so often. Now I got the reason! Thanks for the nice info, daya!You are most welcome Ponpoco! It is good to see laughter take the place of argument. We can offer much additional entertainment for your enjoyment. The quotes below are only a sample. If you want more send us a PM. Temico's history on the internet is a treasure chest full of enjoyment! :D

Daya, Anton, Berger and Soni

PS Temico we are still waiting for your answers!

From: temico Re:Test Your English! (exam)
Hi tutor, I just took this test as I didn't have the time to do so earlier. It's a useful test especially the questions pertaining to grammar and in particular those relating to the tenses. Simple grammar is a common and widespread problem with the English used by us Chinese in HK and I personally believe that this problem is worsened by the contamination of funny-sounding so-called English words in everyday Cantonese conversation. It wouldn't take more than a few minutes to notice that in HK and this form of lingo is actively encouraged everyday by the so-called celebrities and talk show hosts on HK radio and television (trying to showoff their English abilities, perhaps ??) This actually hinders their English because most of them can't even say or write a simple English sentence correctly.

English grammar and Chinese grammar are entirely different and to mix the two is like mixing oil and water!! Knowing a lot of bombastic English words and not being able to say or write a simple English sentence correctly is not a way for learning or improving their English ! or is it ? I believe the reason why you didn't get a lot of feedback for this test is because many must have failed it and are too ashamed to admit it.I admit that I also have made a few mistakes in this test, but I am happy to say that none where grammatical. I guess what I have written above will be enough subject matter to start a chat / argument / discussion / whatever ...... don't u think so? Best regards to allNone of the other members replied to his post. Do you think he knows why? From that time he was not so polite:From: **** Hi Temico, I am a new member of the club and self-claimed to be a humble student who is hoping to learn some real good English in this club. May I ask what you mean by " Tomfoolery" in your most recent posting to ****, and I wonder if you are trying to be a smarta** as you use some vocab that I think the majority of the club members have no clue of what it is about. - ****(a humble student)From: temico Thank you **** for your message and also for your sincerity and HONESTY !! You pointed to me something which I must have missed "that the majority of club members have no clue of what I am talking about". I certainly did not know that you were the LEADER of the majority and therefore spoke for them!! My respects to you ! I am a humble learner too and I am here to LEARN and not to TEACH. Teaching is in the domain of our esteemed and learned Englishtutor. I suggest that if you can't be bothered to check up the words that you don't know in the dictionary, then you should ask(politely, of course) our Englishtutor to explain them to you! By the way, where did find the word " smarta**" from? It's not in my ENGLISH dictionary! Maybe the MINORITY don't have it also, and would like to know where you got that SUPER-MODERN version from! Regards, Temico From: **** To Temico: I wonder if you are really belong to this century. Come on, wake up we don't (at least I don't) live in the past. My advice to you is to use something "modern" that you need not to look it up from the dictionary before you put in down here. : )From: temico Thank you **** for your advice. Honestly, if the way you write is any indication of the way you speak, I would rather leave your MODERN era and live in the STONE AGE !! By the way, if you really represent and speak for the MAJORITY, you shouldn't be surprised if a request is made for a MANUAL-RECOUNT !!!! Regards, Temico

Temico needs to heed his own words! "I am a humble learner too and I am here to LEARN and not to TEACH. Teaching is in the domain of our esteemed and learned Englishtutor."

HA HA HA HA HA!!!

[Temico]

You are most welcome Ponpoco! It is good to see laughter take the place of argument. We can offer much additional entertainment for your enjoyment. The quotes below are only a sample. If you want more send us a PM. Temico's history on the internet is a treasure chest full of enjoyment! :D

Daya, Anton, Berger and Soni

PS Temico we are still waiting for your answers!

None of the other members replied to his post. Do you think he knows why? From that time he was not so polite:

Temico needs to heed his own words! "I am a humble learner too and I am here to LEARN and not to TEACH. Teaching is in the domain of our esteemed and learned Englishtutor."

HA HA HA HA HA!!!

Ha ha ha.......a typical example of a lackey-turned-parrot, sans doubt!!!

[Rusty]

Ha ha ha.......a typical example of a lackey-turned-parrot, sans doubt!!! The only reason that I am not deleting this post is so that the administrator at Englishpage can see it. I understand you have already had an email from him, Temico.

[Temico]

The only reason that I am not deleting this post is so that the administrator at Englishpage can see it. I understand you have already had an email from him, Temico.
No, I have not received anything from the administrator unless s/he is called "Lasalle". I am forwarding the messages received the last two days from this "Lasalle" to you for approval before I make them public. I would like to remind you that the posting of nonsense out of the blue from somewhere else and which has nothing to do with the subject of the thread is also in violation of forum rules/etiquette yet despite that, you still kept them there but chose to delete the replies to them. If this proves anything, it goes to prove that bias, favouritism and hypocrisy is becoming more and more apparent with the moderator/s in this forum.

[daya]

Temico apparently you do not realize what is apparent to everyone else. You waste your time when you argue with the stall keeper. If you don't like the fruit follow your own advice and go to another market.

[Temico]

Temico apparently you do not realize what is apparent to everyone else. You waste your time when you argue with the stall keeper. If you don't like the fruit follow your own advice and go to another market.
It's common knowledge that a dog barks louder in the presence or under the protection of its master!!