Understood

[Nicholas]

Is the use of "understood" correct?

"I have understood the problem" (the problem became clear for me one moment in the past)
"I understood the essence of the issue after his remark" (after his remark the essence became clear for me)

[Mister Micawber]

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Your sentences are correct.

For #1, the understanding needn't have come only 'one moment' in the past-- the sentence says that this past understanding relates in some way to the present. For instance, the context may be: 'I have understood the problem, so I can now fix your air conditioner'.
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[Nicholas]

Thank you for your comments, but not all points are clear.

"I have sent him a message. So, we can expect that his reply will clarify the issue".
Here, e.g. the message was sent at 5 a.m. But I doubt that it is correct to say
"the problem was understood at 2 a.m."
Therefore the sentence "I understood the problem after his remark" ("I understood the problem at 5p.m.")

looks incorrect. In this view probably it is better to use understood in other contexts. For example,
"That year I work on the problem. I understood the importance of the task..."

"I have had a car of this type. I know well its features therefore ... It is a good car, I regret that I sold it and

bought another car".
If the sentence is grammatically correct, so "I have understood the problem" does not give the idea that "now I

understand the problem". But here I can propose that such forms as
"I have had a car"
"I have loved her"
"I have understood"
are not used in English at all. It looks better
"I had a car of this type"
"I loved her"
or
"I have had a car of this type since..."
"I loved her since..."

But at the same time
"I have understood the problem since..." seems unnatural.

Please make your comments and also It is intetersting have ever used such forms as
"I have had a car"
"I have loved her"
without "since" or other time interval limiters?

[Mister Micawber]

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The problem was understood at 2 a.m.-- this is certainly possible, though I admit rare.

I understood the problem after his remark -- this is fine and common.


That year I worked on the problem. I understood the importance of the task. -- this is fine.

I have understood the problem" does not give the idea that "now I understand the problem". -- No, the former would probably appear in a different context: I thought I would never figure it out, but at last I have understood the problem and can now proceed to the next stage.


"I have had a car"
"I have loved her"
"I have understood" -- again, these all seem common English phrases to me. I have loved her for many years; I have had a car several times in the past, but now I walk; yes!-- stop badgering me!-- I have understood what you are trying to say.


"I had a car of this type"
"I loved her"
"I have had a car of this type since..."
"I have loved her since..." -- Also OK, all of these.


"I have had a car"
"I have loved her"
without "since" or other time interval limiters? -- No, out of context, much English, like any language makes little sense: I am green; I have loved; I have understood. Context is everything, whether you choose to include it in your examples or not.
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[liuchunsheng123456]

I am confused now.understand ,know,believe ,etc .As far as i know, they are usually not used with perfect tense.Am i right ?

[Mister Micawber]

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The verbs you list commonly appear in perfect aspect:

I have always known that I would be a great success as a tapdancer.
I have never believed what the police said about you in 1976.
I have never understood why he resigned his commission.
It has sometimes seemed strange to be living in Japan.
I have never doubted you, my darling.

In short, I have never encountered a rule suggesting that these verbs are unusual in perfect aspect. Of course, out of context-- with just an isolated S-V or S-V-O, as Nicholas has presented his examples, they may sound odd (as may many other artificially constructed utterances).

Are either of you perhaps confusing this with the fact that such verbs seldom or never occur in continuous aspect?

(X) I am understanding this now.
(X) He was knowing everything in his textbook until the test came.
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[Nicholas]

How could you take the sentences:

"When I was beginning the work I understood the importance of the reaserch."
"When I was beginning the work I new that it could take a lot of my strength."

I see two possibilties:

1.1 "When I was beginning the work I was aware of the importance of the research."
1.2 "When I was beginning the work I began to understand the importance of the reaserch."

2.1 "When I was beginning the work it was known for me that it could take a lot of my strength."
2.2 "When I was beginning the work I learned that it could take a lot of my strength."

Also it is interesting can the following forms be used in English:

"to get understood" (as an analog of "to get started")
"to get an understanding of..."

And one parallel question.
"I received the message at 5 a.m." OK
"I sent the message at 5 a.m." OK
But I am not very sure that it is correct to say
"I wrote the message at 5 a.m."
"I made the the work at 5 a.m."
maybe it is preferably to use other forms, e.g.:
"I wrote the message yesterday, I finished writting at 5 a.m" ?

[Mister Micawber]

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It is hard to analyze your interpretations because the original sentences are odd: begin is a point event. Let us first put these into more natural shape:

1. When I began the research, I understood its importance.
2. When I began the work, I knew that it could take a lot of my strength.

#1 means either I understood as a result of beginning, or I already understood when I began.
#2 means either I learned as a result of beginning, or I already knew when I began.

We must rely on context to decipher this for us.



"to get understood" (as an analog of "to get started") -- I don't think this is possible, though we do say, 'Get this understood!-- I want this project finished by the end of today!'

"to get an understanding of..." -- this is fine but it rather casual; instead, we often use to gain an understanding of.


"I received the message at 5 a.m." OK -- OK
"I sent the message at 5 a.m." OK -- OK
"I wrote the message at 5 a.m." -- OK. Messages are short; I wrote the book at 5 a.m. is very improbable.
"I made the the work at 5 a.m." -- perhaps OK except that 'made the work' is non-native. We need to know the rough length of the task before we can judge whether it can reasonably be considered a point in time.


I wrote the message yesterday, I finished writing at 5 a.m-- Odd for a message because messages are short. I finished drinking my glass of milk at 5 a.m. is odd for the same reason-- it is unusual for someone to nurse a glass of milk: it becomes warm and unpalatable.
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[Nicholas]

Thank you for detaled comments.

As for "knew" and "understood", I had to pay my attention to them much earlier. But I kept mistakenly thinking that they are definded like "love" (because they are not used in the continious tenses) - here I mean that it is impossible to use "I loved her on monday" to express the idea that the love began on that day.

Your noted that "...begin is a point event...", But isn't it right to say
"Beginning the research, I understood its importance."
"Beginning the work, I knew that it could take a lot of my strength." ?

As for your note on warm milk, I have to say that the most palatable milk is fresh (just from a cow) milk, which is warm yet. But probably in your hot US such "warm" pleasures is not in favor :-)

[Mister Micawber]

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But isn't it right to say
"Beginning the research, I understood its importance."
"Beginning the work, I knew that it could take a lot of my strength." ?
-- Yes, of course you can use that, but using the continuous form in your examples makes it more difficult to analysis the point that you want to discuss; when we have a point reference in the adverbial clause, we can then discuss the relative temporal position of the action in the main clause with much more precision.


...I mean that it is impossible to use "I loved her on monday" to express the idea that the love began on that day.
-- You are right; an adverb is definitely needed: 'I first loved her on Monday'.
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[Nicholas]

Thank you.

Your 'I first loved her on Monday' was unexpected to me, I did not know that the idea can be expressed in this way. But how to express the idea that e.g. on Monday I began to hate someone? "I first hated him on Monday"?

I glanced to a dictionary to check the rightness of my understanding of the verb "begin". I am not sure that I am right, but I would think that it is right to say

"When I began work ..." or
"When I began to work..." or
"When I started the work..."

But not "When I began the work ..."

And also, does your comment on "beginning" implies that
"When I was beginning work ..." is allowed as
"I am beginning to understand" ?
The question rose because it seems to me that in the first case "begin", as you wrote, is a point event, but in the second one its meaning is a little different.
And is it correct to say
"I begin to understand" ?

[Mister Micawber]

.
I first hated him on Monday, when he cut in front of me in the cafeteria line.-- Yes, a good start for a short story.

I would think that it is right to say
"When I began work ..." -- When I started my job or my task
"When I began to work..." -- When I started my task
"When I started the work..." -- When I began a previously mentioned or specified task.

When I began the work ..." -- No difference between 'begin' and 'start', Nicholas.

And also, does your comment on "beginning" implies that "When I was beginning work ..." is allowed as "I am beginning to understand" ? The question rose because it seems to me that in the first case "begin", as you wrote, is a point event, but in the second one its meaning is a little different. -- A beginning is a beginning: a point in whatever process. Using a continuous tense is what gives it relative 'duration'.

And is it correct to say "I begin to understand" -- Yes, indeed. 'Aha! Now I begin to understand the vagaries of English!'
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[Nicholas]

Thank you.

In regard to 'begin' and 'start'. I found in Hornby's Oxford Dictionary that "start" can not be replaced with "begin" in the sense "make a beginning" (he started his journey home"). So, I suppose "to begin work" is used because "work" is not restricted in time (like begin measurement) in contrast to "the work" which represents a set of actions ("to begin work" but "to start the work").

On "And is it correct to say "I begin to understand"" you wrote "Yes, indeed. 'Aha! Now I begin to understand the vagaries of English!'". I suppose that in the case "I begin" can be reffered to a rather long period, but "I am beginning" used when the process of beginning is developing right now.

Is it right?

[Mister Micawber]

In regard to 'begin' and 'start'. I found in Hornby's Oxford Dictionary that "start" can not be replaced with "begin" in the sense "make a beginning" (he started his journey home").
You can ignore Hornby on this one, Nicholas.

I started my journey home.
I began my journey home.

Both are fine and common. Ms Google says:

1,700,000 English pages for "begin (http://www.answers.com/begin&r=67) * journey".
3,800,000 English pages for "start (http://www.answers.com/start&r=67) * journey".


So, I suppose "to begin work" is used because "work" is not restricted in time (like begin measurement) in contrast to "the work" which represents a set of actions ("to begin work" but "to start the work").
Begin/start work = commence one's job or task.
Begin/start the work = commence one's previously mentioned or specific task.

I really don't like repeating myself, Nicholas.

'Aha! Now I begin to understand the vagaries of English!'". I suppose that in the case "I begin" can be reffered to a rather long period, but "I am beginning" used when the process of beginning is developing right now.
I think that is an observant and generally correct assessment, Nicholas. Both are happening 'now', of course.
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[Nicholas]

For example, I am listening to a man commenting the Formula 1 races. What would I hear
"John started just after the signal but Bill a little delayed" or
"John began just after the signal but Bill a little delayed" ?

What do you usually use
"As a rule I start my journey to my office at 7 o'clock"
"As a rule I begin my journey to my office at 7 o'clock" ?

Can
"The news started me thinking" be replaced with
"The news began me thinking" ?