if she will

[Bridget]

Why do some native English speakers (NES) allow themselves to write/say things such as:

If she won't come to Sardinia with us, there's nothing we can do to make her.

but don't permit themselves to write/say:

If she will come to Sardinia with us, we can show her many wonderful monuments.

[danmahaffey]

I will echo my other reply and ask you to ask your larger question. Are you asking us about the use of will after if? Or is there some other matter that has you concerned?

We will help.

[Bridget]

I will echo my other reply and ask you to ask your larger question. Are you asking us about the use of will after if? Or is there some other matter that has you concerned?

We will help.

Sorry it has taken so long to reply, but I couldn't log on for some reason.

Yes, I'm asking about the use of will after if and in the same clause.

When the speaker is not sure of the referent's willngness to do a certain thing, why don't many native speakers like the use of that form?

[danmahaffey]

To begin, most speakers use a more relaxed style of grammar than they would in writing--not by choice but by happenstance. Next, many speakers may not realize that if contains the idea of occurrence in the future, so that to combine the modal will with if causes a double future expression. Third, will also acts as a modal of intent--which is what is at play here.

If will shows intent, then its use following if does not present the problem of double future, and is allowed.

Here are some examples:
Future only, no intent: If she will come to Sardinia with us, we can show her many wonderful monuments. Incorrect.
Future only, no intent: If she comes to Sardinia with us, we can show her many wonderful monuments. Correct.
Intent (plus future): If she won't come to Sardinia with us, there's nothing we can do to make her. Correct.
Intent (plus future): If she won't come to Sardinia with us, we can't show her any wonderful monuments. Correct.
Future only, no intent: If she won't come to Sardinia with us, we can't show her any wonderful monuments. Incorrect, but often heard.
Future only, no intent: If she doesn't come to Sardinia with us, we can't show her any wonderful monuments. Correct.Thanks for following up. I hope this explanation helps.

[Bridget]

<Next, many speakers may not realize that if contains the idea of occurrence in the future,>

Can it do that alone? Surely it only does that when combined with a verb.

E.G.

If he had done his homework, he would have passed the exam. ("If" helps refer to the past there).

<Third, will also acts as a modal of intent--which is what is at play here.>

So there, it is refering to the present, right?

I don't understand fully why you say it is incorrect to use "will" below.

If there is doubt about her wanting to go, surely the stressed "will" is wholly grammatical here:

Al: She says she will come with us/She's finally decided to come with us.

Molly: If she will come to Sardinia with us, we can show her many wonderful monuments.

That shows intention, or doubt about intention, doesn't it?

[danmahaffey]

<Next, many speakers may not realize that if contains the idea of occurrence in the future,>

Can it do that alone? Surely it only does that when combined with a verb.

E.G.

If he had done his homework, he would have passed the exam. ("If" helps refer to the past there).Actually, if means in the event, and refers to a time that hasn't happened. That means either future, or hypothetical time, like an alternative past. The context will tell you the nature of time.



Will, as a modal of futurity or intent, refers to the future. So the combination of if and will presents the dilemma.

<Third, will also acts as a modal of intent--which is what is at play here.>

So there, it is refering to the present, right?

I don't understand fully why you say it is incorrect to use "will" below.

If there is doubt about her wanting to go, surely the stressed "will" is wholly grammatical here:

Al: She says she will come with us/She's finally decided to come with us.

Molly: If she will come to Sardinia with us, we can show her many wonderful monuments.

That shows intention, or doubt about intention, doesn't it?Ahh...I didn't say it was incorrect the way you are using emphasizing will. You have a correct sentence.

Did you notice that examples #4 and 5 are identical? And that one is correct and one is incorrect?

[Bridget]

<Will, as a modal of futurity or intent, refers to the future. So the combination of if and will presents the dilemma.>

I'm a bit confused here. I've always thought of "will" as a modal of intent OR futurity. Here, for example, it doesn't express futurity:

They will be there by now.

He will have left already.

There it is a modal of deduction.

And here, it doesn't intentionally express futurity:

He will sit for hours staring out of the window.

You will stay out till all hours: it's no wonder you can't concentrate on your work.

There, habit or insistent action is expressed. It's timeless/no time.

So for me, "will" is not always marking futurity.

[Bridget]

<Did you notice that examples #4 and 5 are identical? And that one is correct and one is incorrect?>

Yes, I did, but I also wondered why you didn't give the same treatment to the affirmative form.

EG

Future only, no intent: If she will come to Sardinia with us, we can show her many wonderful monuments. Incorrect.

Intent: If she will come to Sardinia with us, we can show her many wonderful monuments.Correct.
Intent: If she comesto Sardinia with us, we can show her many wonderful monuments. Correct.*


Is it an automatic reaction for most NES to reject the affirmative, emphatic/stresed "If + will", form? To me, the intent form with will is less ambiguous than the one without (see above*).

[danmahaffey]

So many examples; so little time.

[danmahaffey]

OK, but we've left the realm of if, haven't we? Now you're showing uses of will and there's nary an if in sight. Different game. :)

[Dr. Jamshid Ibrahim]

Why do some native English speakers (NES) allow themselves to write/say things such as:

If she won't come to Sardinia with us, there's nothing we can do to make her.

but don't permit themselves to write/say:

If she will come to Sardinia with us, we can show her many wonderful monuments.

I haven't read all the posts carefully but I would like to add that will in the if-clause is often used for reasons of politeness because the verb after if might sound like an order: If you will wait here
sounds friendlier than: if you wait here.

The other point is: the different meanings of "will" which is a different issue. Of course "will" is not used only for futurity. "Will" can have different meanings not possible to list them all here.

[danmahaffey]

And now we see will again as a modal of volition, and it means to deign.

That's the thing with English language rules: you make a perfectly good rule, and then you have to start putting holes in it so that real life can pass through.

[Bridget]

<I haven't read all the posts carefully but I would like to add that will in the if-clause is often used for reasons of politeness because the verb after if might sound like an order: If you will wait here
sounds friendlier than: if you wait here.>

Do you feel, it is being used to indicate politeness in the topic sentence above?

[Bridget]

That's the thing with English language rules: you make a perfectly good rule, and then you have to start putting holes in it so that real life can pass through.

Ain't that the truth, Dan? ;)