Noun clause or adjective clause

[ErehtRaen]

This is quite confusing for me. Here is the sentence,

Her idea that I hire you was a very funny one.

Would you say the clause I underlined is a Noun clause acts as an appositive to "her idea" or a Adjective Noun modifying the idea? I would really appreciate some insights and answer. Thanks a lot.

Raen

[Marius Hancu]

This is what it seems to me:

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That as a relative pronoun introduces a defining relative clause

* Have you got any books in the library that are easy to read? ~ The books that are easy to read are on the first floor.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/le...rnitv243.shtml
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Seems to be modifying "Her idea," anyway.

[Marius Hancu]

You may want to have a look at:

[PDF]
COMPLEX SENTENCES - AN ANALYTICAL GRAMMAR FOR ADVANCED ESL STUDENTS ...
http://www.flesl.net/Grammar/Complex%20Sentences.pdf

chapter 6, which seems to refer to "appositive noun clauses".

See p. 53 (as shown on page) /Noun clause (p. 60 as shown in the pdf reader at the bottom), where:

(a) The idea that shells could feel pain came to obsess her.

where I guess the bolded is seen as a restrictive appositive noun clause, from what I could understand in my quick sweep of the page.

There's also a paragraph commenting there on the difference between the adjective clauses and the appositive ones, such as this one:

(b) The story that she heard filled her with fear.

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The adjective clause (b) gives information about the story, it tells us the effect it had. The appositive clause (a) tells us what the idea is; it states it or 'puts it into words.'
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Just your interest:-)


BTW, I found this by searching on "appositive noun clause" at Google (quotation marks used to group up terms), which you should have done yourself.


Now, you should decide yourself for your sentence:-)



It didn't seem to me to be a clean appositive in the first instance, as I can't say:

That I hire you was a very funny one.

However, I can say:

(The idea) That I hire you was a very funny idea. [one is used there only to avoid repetition]

and I can say:

That shells could feel pain came to obsess her. (clearly an appositive).

Finally, an appositive to me.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by ErehtRaen

This is quite confusing for me. Here is the sentence,

Her idea that I hire you was a very funny one.

Would you say the clause I underlined is a Noun clause acts as an appositive to "her idea" or a Adjective Noun modifying the idea? I would really appreciate some insights and answer. Thanks a lot.

Raen

I'll admit that I didn't try to look up all the references that Marius provided.

The clause "that I hire you" is indeed a noun clause that is being used as an appositive to "her idea". Here the word "that" is a conjunction, not a relative pronoun. To see that the clause is an appositive, i.e. it acts like a noun that means the same thing as the word it is in apposition to, note that it would make perfect sense to say
- Her idea is that I hire you.

An example of a sentence with a relative adjective clause (here the word "that" refers to "her idea") is:
- Her idea that she mentioned last week was a funny one.

Note that the adjective clause tells us something about the idea and helps to identify it, but it is not the same as the phrase that it modifies; we cannot say:
X- Her idea is that she mentioned last week. -X

[OddThomas]

Marius Hancu, a solid analysis. An appositive it is. Nicely done.

[Marius Hancu]

>Here the word "that" is a conjunction, not a relative pronoun.

Good obs, Pete.

[ErehtRaen]

Thanks to all. I appreciate it, the differences have been made clear to me now. So from what I gather, the appositive noun clause has to be, in meaning, the noun that it is in apposition to. Thanks alot.

There's one little inquiry I'd like to make now that I'm convienced this sentence is an appositive case, not an adjective clause, why is the clause

that I hire you

in simple present tense that is not in accorde with that of the main clause

was her idea?

and compare to the example Hancu presented:

The idea that shells could feel pain came to obsess her.

whereas the tense of the sub clause is as same as that of the main clause, it seems to me.


To Hancu,

BTW, I found this by searching on "appositive noun clause" at Google (quotation marks used to group up terms), which you should have done yourself.

Believe me, I have been online studying English grammar for 2 weeks straight. And I am trying to get all the help that I can get when I come across confusing and ambiguous grammar points such as this. To imply that I didn't do any workhome before I post any grammar-related question is not fair. True, examples are everything over the internet but most are not geared clear up specific point of confusion such as I had by comparing, analysing and concluding as you and Pet have kindly done for me, and I thought this is what a forum is exactly intended for.......answering a ligitimate inquiry and having a discussion, ect.

My point is I am not an idle student. I trule appreciate your help and Pete's, thanks again.

Raen

[Marius Hancu]

that I hire you

is not present time. (I prefer to use "time" and not "tense" here).

It's an ellipsis on:

that I should hire you

which as any sentence containing modal verbs, can many times show in any time (past, present, future).

I take it as a subjunctive mood form, as defined in George Curme's classical grammar, which has the greatest treatment of the subjunctive that I know of and is the basis for this Wikipedia page:

Subjunctive mood
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjunctive_mood

Say:

He recommends that I hire you.
She recommends that he hire you. [not hires, which would be a present time form!!!
He would probably recommend that I hire you.

The first two are about present/future, the 2nd is about future time, with hire in subjunctive.

BTW, ideas/recommendations/suggestions are many times followed by the subjunctive in formal English.

BTW, my point on searching was mainly about the fact that you may not have used the appropriate searching method (i.e. "appositive noun clause," with quotation marks for grouping terms, at Google).

[OddThomas]

E.R.--Your definition is correct (insofar as it defines an adjective clause), however you have, I believe, misapprehended the word "that" as a pronoun. In the earlier discussion, "that" has been classified as a conjunction, clearly linking the noun clause "I hire you" to "idea."

If the sentence had been, "Her idea that dissuaded me from hiring you was unexpected," then (a) "that" would be a pronoun, and (b) the clause "that dissuaded me from hiring you" would be an adjective clause.

Does this make sense?